Curse

Red Locust · Jul 02, 2006, 02:13 AM // 02:13

If anyone hasn't seen [WM] vs. [mn] game 2, make sure you watch it before it disappears because it's a very entertaining show.

What it basically amounts to (spoilers) is WM's 3 monk, 1 ele, 1 mes, 1 warrior holding the stand while 2 assassins waltz right into mn's base doing whatever the hell they please. First run they walked right past everything and ganked the bodyguards + some NPC's. At one point, 6 mn are fighting the 2 assassins in mn's base with NPCs aiding the fight, and the 2 assassins manage to get off a kill and calmly walk out after about a 1min skirmish of 2vs6+.

The build revolves around 2 assn/mes using shadow form, arcane echo and arcane mimicry to triple up on shadow form. The rest of their skillbar included dark escape, blackout / caltrops and phoenix-ox-spider / leaping mantis-fox fangs-twisting fangs, respectively.

The only viable way of dealing with this, provided you can survive the first ~25s of shadow form, is to interrupt using shock, leech sig or some other skill-designated interrupt, which is non-trivial since caltrops can easily buy you the needed time from shock and leech/disruption sig are pretty bad. Failing that, you're basically screwed. Lone monks cannot hope to survive the 2 assassins, sending both your monks in gets your flag squad destroyed, sending no monks gets your NPC's and whoever is unlucky enough to have to face the assassins destroyed. Pretty much no matter how you play it, they will get in -at least- a good 20s within which they can wreak havoc to you.

So what do you think? Will this build fly or is it just another gimmick?

Mercury Angel · Jul 02, 2006, 02:33 AM // 02:33

Well, there's Signet of Disenchantment as well >_> It's a non-spell enchantment stripper, and if Shadow Refuge isn't up at that moment, you're set.

Yes, Signet of Disenchantment is awful. But this is exactly why I said it had minimal potential. (In another thread about it, anyway.)

Wasteland Squidget · Jul 02, 2006, 03:17 AM // 03:17

It could fly as another gimmick, but there are any number of skills that counter it. Signet of Disenchantment, traps, smiting, well-placed Shocks, ect. It's a nice build for metagaming your opponent if you know they won't be running a lot of these things, but weaker on the ladder than most gimmicks because it makes for very long matches.

I can't see it becoming commonly used simply because it takes a lot of skill to play effectively.

tomcruisejr · Jul 02, 2006, 09:01 AM // 09:01

from splits, dual assassins to shadowform assassins, its theirs and copycats wont be able to run it well. so it wont be a widespread gimmick.

Greedy Gus · Jul 02, 2006, 12:53 PM // 12:53

boon prot using oob and packing chilblains to camp bodyguards is what I would think about running if I was facing WM in the playoffs. But yeah, not many good counters to run in general ladder play.

Worf · Jul 02, 2006, 01:11 PM // 13:11

Chilblains is 25nrg and removes only one enchatment. If they have Arcane Echo same time on then it will not help.

Greedy Gus · Jul 02, 2006, 01:36 PM // 13:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Worf

Chilblains is 25nrg and removes only one enchatment. If they have Arcane Echo same time on then it will not help.

echo isn't a cover enchant, they use it right before form.

TheOneMephisto · Jul 02, 2006, 02:24 PM // 14:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Worf

Chilblains is 25nrg and removes only one enchatment. If they have Arcane Echo same time on then it will not help.

The WM sins didn't use cover enchants. Why would they? In the current metagame there are approx 0 non-spell enchant removers that people might take. The only one that people might even consider is Spirit of Disenchantment.

Worf · Jul 02, 2006, 03:44 PM // 15:44

They didn't use cover enchantments, but sometimes they casted Arcane Echo over 5 seconds before they used Shadow Form (when SF was already on). And there can be (if the team is close enough) skills like Order of Pain on what covers it. WM didn't use them, but just to tell that Chilblains isn't always sure SF removal.

Dragannia · Jul 02, 2006, 03:45 PM // 15:45

I met a team today running this build. They owned us utterly (ranked 36 I think). Funnily enough I killed one with Unnatural Sig after the second Form.

DieInBasra · Jul 02, 2006, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Try signet of Disenchantment. It can fit well into most builds and it's downside is countered by focus swapping. Expunge on a hammer, or even a axe will bulls strike works well too.

Winstar · Jul 02, 2006, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Here is a rather silly idea...well of the profane...If you have a nec/mo or something like that in your build send em back with someone else. When they drop an NPC throw up the well and strip em clean. Who knows...this might be a weak link otherwise though. I guess it could be ok against any heavy enchanting build like smite. who knows.

Phades · Jul 04, 2006, 12:37 AM // 00:37

Why didnt they just get hit with a blackout? Blackout stops their combos and prevents reapplications of the shadow form. Any amount of degen while they were vulnerable would end them.

Wasteland Squidget · Jul 04, 2006, 12:50 AM // 00:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Why didnt they just get hit with a blackout? Blackout stops their combos and prevents reapplications of the shadow form. Any amount of degen while they were vulnerable would end them.

Given that they usually cast a second or two before their previous shadow form ends, you'd only have a couple seconds of vulnerability. That's not to say it wouldn't work, but it's by no means the best solution since you have to have a squishy Dom mesmer back on your split team. Assassins like these can drop casters quickly, even with monk support.

The aforementioned ideas are probably better. Signet-based enchantment removal or interrupts, or just non-targeted damage like traps and smiting.

wren e · Jul 04, 2006, 12:59 AM // 00:59

Another counter that no one has mentioned is touch rangers. While I wouldn't suggest bringing touch rangers into a GvG just in case you run into this duo, but if you are sure that you will face them, ie tournement play, then going with a 6-2 split of your own with the 2 being touchers can counter this. Also, touchers can do just as well at clearing out npc's in the opposing teams base.

Kijik Oni Hanryuu · Jul 04, 2006, 07:18 AM // 07:18

this build won't fly, not because it sucks, but because this build is begging for the nerf bat, either they are going to make Arcane Echo an elite, or they are going to do something absolutely horrible to shadow form, and all hell will break loose again, Sins will be done one more build when they only have like three really good ones to start with. oy, I hate GvG sometimes, they always get us nerfed..

tomcruisejr · Jul 04, 2006, 07:27 AM // 07:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kijik Oni Hanryuu

this build won't fly, not because it sucks, but because this build is begging for the nerf bat, either they are going to make Arcane Echo an elite, or they are going to do something absolutely horrible to shadow form, and all hell will break loose again, Sins will be done one more build when they only have like three really good ones to start with. oy, I hate GvG sometimes, they always get us nerfed..

anything "new" or "old" is vulnerable to nerf bat.

and i wonder why.

Dragannia · Jul 04, 2006, 07:38 AM // 07:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kijik Oni Hanryuu

this build won't fly, not because it sucks, but because this build is begging for the nerf bat, either they are going to make Arcane Echo an elite, or they are going to do something absolutely horrible to shadow form, and all hell will break loose again, Sins will be done one more build when they only have like three really good ones to start with. oy, I hate GvG sometimes, they always get us nerfed..

Tripple Shadow form can be taken out by multiple things. You're way too pessimistic about it; it's not overpowered in the least.

Kijik Oni Hanryuu · Jul 04, 2006, 07:41 AM // 07:41

eh, I just think about how AoD got slightly nerfed when it was used in a guild battle, and it was easy to stop with a shatter, I could just imagine if this build is powerful enough how badly itll get slammed.. but, we being resilient assassins will recouperate.

TheOneMephisto · Jul 04, 2006, 12:29 PM // 12:29

The only real reason WM succeded with this build is because they took the right time to whip it out. It's a risky build, but they played the metagame correctly and hit mn unprepared. Against an even semi-prepared team, this build would've failed.